Welcome back to Thom being a total badass and some questionable gender relations in this week’s Reading the Wheel of Time. I’m not going to lie, I’m a little annoyed with the way the ladies in this section have been handled by the narration, but there’s also a lot of great stuff in Chapters 34 and 35, and I have so many questions about the Seanchan and the Ogier. Also I love Thom.
Chapter 34 opens with Thom returning to The Bunch of Grapes, annoyed at having been kept at Barthanes’s party until dawn. In addition to taking the wrong lessons from the tales he told, they laughed at him. They also asked him questions about Rand, and Thom is worried that his answers had not been clever enough.
In his room, Thom finds that Dena has fallen asleep in her clothes waiting for him—or so he thinks, until he reaches to shake her shoulder and finds that she is actually dead, her throat slit and the far side of the bed soaked in her blood. Thom is struck with grief and horror, but manages to turn and fight the two men who suddenly burst from his armoires. He kills the first easily with a knife from his sleeve, but his bad leg makes him miss the second, hitting him in the shoulder rather than a more fatal place. Thom leaps at the man as he tries to escape, bringing him down and pinning him roughly, positioning another knife right over the man’s eye.
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Under the threat, the killer tells Thom that he was sent by Barthanes for information, and offers Thom gold in exchange for what he knows about Rand; the assassin and his friend know that Rand and an Ogier visited Thom in his rooms. Bitter that Dena his died for this, Thom replies that Rand is nothing more than a shepherd, and ignores the man’s continued suggestion that they could make money together with what Thom knows. Instead, Thom tells him that he should have left Dena alone, then drives the knife home.
He’s tugging his blades out of bodies when Zena bangs into the room, too late to inform him that she heard that two of Barthanes’s men were asking about him. She takes in the dead men and Dena on the bed, and tells Thom he needs to leave at once. Thom replies that he can’t leave yet, because he has another man to kill, but Zena informs him that Barthanes has already been killed, and was found torn to pieces in his own bedroom with his head stuck on a spike. With the fact that Thom was there last night and now the two dead men, she tells Thom that everyone will believe that he was responsible for Barthanes, and even seems to suspect it herself.
Thom gives her the money he made at the party and has begun packing when Zena suddenly recognizes one of the men, not as one of Barthanes’s, but as one of Galldrian’s. She immediately picks up on Thom’s thoughts of seeking revenge and tells him off, reminding him that Dena wouldn’t want him to die foolishly. Outside, they can see the first signs of a fire brewing—someone setting fire to the granaries, Thom surmises, though when he warns Zena she brushes it off, saying that she has survived riots before.
“You have a dangerous look in your eyes, Thom Merrilin. Imagine Dena sitting here, alive and hale. Think what she would say. Would she let you go off and get yourself killed to no purpose?”
“I’m only an old gleeman,” he said from the door. And Rand al’Thor is only a shepherd, but we both do what we must. “Who could I possibly be dangerous to?”
As he pulled the door to, hiding her, hiding Dena, a mirthless, wolfish grin came onto his face. His leg hurt, but he barely felt it as he hurried purposefully down the stairs and out of the inn.
Meanwhile, Padan Fain is riding alone on a hilltop overlooking Falme, having left the Trollocs and Darkfriends behind and taken the chest alone on an extra horse. When the Darkfriend to whom the horse belonged protested giving it up, Fain let the Trollocs eat her.
Considering the town down below him, he turns over in his mind the information he has gleaned about the Seanchan from the conquered people he encountered on Toman Head—by torturing them, apparently. A lot of what he learned from the men and women (and children) he immediately discarded as rumor and hysteria, but as he looks down at the strange creatures the Seanchan ride, he realizes that at least some of what he dismissed is actually true. And when he rides into town, he finds himself unmolested by either locals or Seanchan soldiers.
He notes that while all seems peaceful and orderly, he can sense the tension just under the surface. And Fain always does well where men are tense and afraid.
He dismounts when he comes to a large house guarded by both soldiers and the three-eyed creatures, which is flying blue-bordered banners embroidered with a hawk clutching lightning bolts. The sight of the banner amuses Fain as he approaches an officer and forces himself to bow low, explaining that he has something that will interest their Great Lord, and that the Great Lord will want to see both it and Fain, personally.
When the guard notes that Fain is not a local and inquires if he has taken the oaths, Fain knows the right words to reply, “I obey, await, and will serve.”
Everyone he had questioned spoke of the oaths, though none had understood what they meant. If these people wanted oaths, he was prepared to swear anything. He had long since lost count of the oaths he had taken.
When the soldiers get a look at the ornate silver and gold chest, some of them are even moved to gasp aloud, and the officer remarks that it is a gift “fit for the Empress herself” and instructs Fain to follow him. Fain is searched, and notes that those guards entering with him leave their weapons outside. He forgets to pretend to be scared of the creatures, only noting the Seanchan’s surprise when it’s too late.
Fain forces himself to remain falsely humble while he kneels with his face to the floor as his gift is presented to the High Lord Turak. Eventually, when the guards and all the servants save one have left, Turak commands Fain to rise and to explain how he came by such a chest as this, given that he hardly looks like he could afford such a treasure. Fain explains that his shabbiness is what allowed him to bring the chest to Turak without being molested, and that it is a great treasure from the Age of Legends. Soon, he claims, he will be able to open it, and to present to Turak a treasure that will enable the High Lord to conquer all the lands, and that nothing will be able to stand against him.
He stops talking when Turak starts to run his long nails over the chest, and surprises Fain by knowing how to open it. Fain is furious to lose this part of his bargaining position, but manages to maintain outward composure, even when Turak reaches in and takes out both the Horn and the dagger. He asks, clearly already knowing himself, if Fain knows what it is, and Fain replies that it is the Horn of Valere.
They proceed into the other room, where Turak’s cabinet and chair reside, and servants bring a table and a stand for the Horn. When Turak sets the dagger beside the Horn, Fain can’t stop himself from reaching for it, and the servant who has remained with them catches his wrist.
“Unshaven dog! Know that the hand that touches the property of the High Lord unbidden is cut off.”
“It is mine,” Fain growled. Patience! So long.
Turak, lounging back in the chair, lifted one blue-lacquered fingernail, and Fain was pulled out of the way so the High Lord could view the Horn unobstructed.
“Yours?” Turak said. “Inside a chest you could not open? If you interest me sufficiently, I may give you the dagger. Even if it is from the Age of Legends, I have no interest in such as that. Before all else, you will answer me a question. Why have you brought the Horn of Valere to me?”
Fain pulls himself together and tells the High Lord a fake story about how he is a descendant of a family which served Artur Paendrag Tanreall, and did not abandon their oaths when he was “murdered by the witches of Tar Valon.” He insists that his family maintained their loyalty, despite suffering for it, and passed the chest down from generation to generation, awaiting the return of the Artur’s descendants, so that they could serve and advise them, as the family once had for the High King.
“…High Lord, except for its border, the banner that flies over this roof is the banner of Luthair, the son Artur Paendrag Tanreall sent with his armies across the ocean.” Fain dropped to his knees, giving a good imitation of being overwhelmed. “High Lord, I wish only to serve and advise the blood of the High King.”
Turak remarks that Fain seems to be the only person who knows of these things; some speak of it as rumors but no one seems to know the way Turak sees the knowledge in Fain’s eyes. He says he could almost suspect that Fain was a trap for him, but he can’t think that anyone would use the Horn of Valere in such a way. He knows that the Horn was said to be hidden in this land, and can’t believe that any lord possessing it wouldn’t use it against the Seanchan invasion.
Fain explains that the Horn was found by an ancestor who knew how to open the chest during the turmoil of Hawkwing’s death, but that ancestor failed to pass on the knowledge, so that his descendants knew what was inside but not how to retrieve it. They only knew they had to keep it safe until the High King’s blood returned.
“Almost could I believe you.”
“Believe, High Lord. Once you sound the Horn—”
“Do not ruin what convincing you have managed to do. I shall not sound the Horn of Valere. When I return to Seanchan, I shall present it to the Empress as the chiefest of my trophies. Perhaps the Empress will sound it herself.”
“But, High Lord,” Fain protested, “you must—” He found himself lying on his side, his head ringing. Only when his eyes cleared did he see the man with the pale braid rubbing his knuckles and realize what had happened.
“Some words,” the fellow said softly, “are never used to the High Lord.”
Fain decided how the man was going to die.
Turak remarks idly that he might just give Fain to the Empress, that it might amuse her to meet a man who claimed to have held true to the oaths when everyone else has failed to remember them. Fain tries to hide his elation at discovering that there is an Empress, which he hadn’t known about, and that he might have access not just to a lord but to a proper ruler who might want to wield the Horn herself, but Turak notes that he almost seems eager to be sent to her.
He goes on to explain to Fain that whoever blows the Horn is forever bound to it, and that for anyone else who tries afterwards it will only be an ordinary horn. Turak is twelfth in line for succession to the throne, and he knows that, although the Empress wants potential heirs to compete among themselves, she favors one of her daughters. Even if Turak were to use the Horn to conquer all the lands and lay them, along with all the Aes Sedai on domane leashes, at her feet, the Empress would believe that he meant to be more than just her heir. He tells Fain that the Empress has “Listeners” everywhere, and that those suspected can find themselves turned over to the “Seekers of Truth.” He alludes to their methods of extracting such truth, describing how even Lords and Ladies can be subject to it, and how someone like Fain would not be given such levels of care as the Seekers might give in their torture of the highborn. He is clearly trying to frighten Fain, who plays the part even as he thinks inwardly of how fertile the ground of such a system is for Fain’s skills.
Turak decides that he will keep Fain for a while, along with the other man who amuses him, even though Turak suspects that they both tell lies. He dismisses Fain, and the servant with the blond braid starts to pull Fain away, but Fain resists, bowing to Turak and informing him that he is being followed by Darkfriends who would claim the Horn. Turak remarks that there are few Darkfriends in Seanchan; most died at the hands of the Seekers for Truth. He thinks it might be amusing to meet a Darkfriend, and although Fain insist that they are dangerous, telling of the Trollocs and painting Rand as their lying, devious leader, Turak doesn’t seem the least troubled.
“Trollocs,” Turak mused. “There were no Trollocs in Seanchan. But the Armies of the Night had other allies. Other things. I have often wondered if a grolm could kill a Trolloc. I will have watch kept for your Trollocs and your Darkfriends, if they are not another lie. This land wearies me with boredom.” He sighed and inhaled the fumes from his cup.
Fain is at last pulled from the room, and hardly hears the lecture about disobeying the High Lord as he ponders how he will at last get his revenge on Rand al’Thor, and how the whole world will pay for what Rand did to him.
But Rand is still far away from Padan Fain and Falme as he and his companions travel through the lands outside of Cairhien on their way to Stedding Tsofu. Ingtar continues to both grumble that this is a wild goose chase and chafe at the fact that they are riding away from Toman Head. Still, he follows Verin’s orders to keep the company riding with speed.
Rand is resolute in his determination that he will perform this one duty of retrieving the Horn and the Dagger and then get away from the Aes Sedai again, while Perrin has lots of questions for Loial about how steddings work, asking if anything besides Trollocs would refuse to enter a stedding, and if wolves would enter it. Loial explains that only creatures of the Shadow are reluctant to enter a stedding, them and Aes Sedai, since one cannot channel the Power while inside one. Loial seems the most reluctant of any of them to travel to a stedding, while Mat just looks sick, despite Verin attempting to Heal him several times.
When they pass into the border of the stedding, Rand sees those riding in front of him shiver or start before he, too, steps over the invisible line and feels a chill pass through him, followed by the feeling of being refreshed. There also is the dull ache of something missing, though he doesn’t recognize it as the lack of connection to saidin. He notes Perrin’s look of recognition when it is his turn to enter the stedding.
Then a young female Ogier appears and Loial makes hasty introductions, though he leaves out the name of his own stedding.
For a moment the Ogier girl—Rand was sure she was no older than Loial—studied them, then smiled. “Be welcome to Stedding Tsofu.” Her voice was a lighter version of Loial’s, too; the softer rumble of a smaller bumblebee. “I am Erith, daughter of Iva daughter of Alar. Be welcome. We have had so few human visitors since the stonemasons left Cairhien, and now so many at once. Why, we even had some of the Traveling People, though, of course, they left when the… Oh, I talk too much. I will take you to the Elders. Only… ” She searched among them for the one in charge, and settled finally on Verin. “Aes Sedai, you have so many men with you, and armed. Could you please leave some of them Outside? Forgive me, but it is always unsettling to have very many armed humans in the stedding at once.”
“Of course, Erith,” Verin said. “Ingtar, will you see to it?”
Ingtar gave orders to Uno, and so it was that he and Hurin were the only Shienarans to follow Erith deeper into the stedding.
As they walk, Loial comments to Rand, Mat, and Perrin about how beautiful Erith is, and remarks that it feels good to be back in a stedding, not that he was in any danger of the Longing, that is.
Perrin asks what Loial means by “Longing.” The Ogier explains how, during the Breaking of the World, when the mountains and rivers and oceans were being moved, changed, or destroyed, and the Ogiers were separated from the steddings, unable to find them and wandering lost through the world, they felt the Longing come on them, a pining for their homes so powerful that many died from it.
Loial shook his head sadly. “More died than lived. When we finally began to find the stedding again, one at a time, in the years of the Covenant of the Ten Nations, it seemed we had defeated the Longing at last, but it had changed us, put seeds in us. Now, if an Ogier is Outside too long, the Longing comes again; he begins to weaken, and he dies if he does not return.”
Rand immediately asks if Loial needs to stay in Stedding Tsofu for a while, worried that the Ogier might get sick if he stays with them, but Loial promises that he will know when it comes, and that won’t be for some time. He knows one Ogier who spent ten years living among the Sea Folk and still came home safe and sound.
They encounter some other Ogier, singing as they work in the fields, and then come upon a huge tree that has them all gaping at its size. Mat remarks you could build fifty houses from one of those trees, offending Loial, who tells them that some of the largest were seedlings during the Age of Legends, and that the Ogier never cut down the Great Trees unless they die, which almost never happens. Mat makes a quick apology.
Rand continues to observe the Ogier they pass, noting how comfortable and at home with themselves and their surroundings they seem to be. He also notices that some of the women take a special interest in Loial, who studiously keeps his eyes ahead, although his twitching ears give away his agitation. They are approaching a sort of town square, centered around the stump of one of the Great Trees, when Erith announces that their other guests are approaching, and the party turns to see two Aiel women and a younger Aiel girl come around the side of the huge stump, women who Ingtar instantly identifies as maidens of the spear as he reaches to loosen his sword in its scabbard. The Aiel catch sight of them a moment later, the youngest woman shouting out “Shienarans!” She quickly sets down the bowl she is carrying and the three quickly tie brown cloths around their hair and cover their faces with black veils, leaving only their eyes showing.
They advance as Ingtar orders Verin and Erith to stand aside, as he and Hurin and Rand all draw their swords. Perin has his axe halfway out as well, but Mat loudly declares that, Aiel or not, he isn’t going to attack women. Erith, meanwhile, is begging them all not to, and Loial cries out “Remember the Pact!” Rand draws the void, finding it disturbingly empty without the presence of saidin.
Abruptly an Ogier strode in between the two groups, his narrow beard quivering. “What is the meaning of this? Put up your weapons.” He sounded scandalized. “For you”—his glare took in Ingtar and Hurin, Rand and Perrin, and did not spare Mat for all his empty hands—“there is some excuse, but for you–” He rounded on the Aiel women, who had stopped their advance. “Have you forgotten the Pact?”
The women uncovered their heads and faces so hastily that it seemed they were trying to pretend they had never been covered. The girl’s face was bright red, and the other women looked abashed. One of the older women, the one with the reddish hair, said, “Forgive us, Treebrother. We remember the Pact, and we would not have bared steel, but we are in the land of the Treekillers, where every hand is against us, and we saw armed men.” Her eyes were gray, Rand saw, like his own.
“You are in a stedding, Rhian,” the Ogier said gently. “Everyone is safe in the stedding, little sister. There is no fighting here, and no hand raised against another.” She nodded, ashamed, and the Ogier looked at Ingtar and the others.
They quickly sheathe their weapons, and the Ogier, Juin, asks Verin to accompany him to the Elders, who would like to know why an Aes Sedai would come to the stedding, and why she’s brought armed men and one of their own young people. Verin clearly wants to talk to the Aiel but she follows Juin anyway, leaving the others to study them. Rand notices that they are giving him, in particular, angry looks, and the youngest even mutters about how Rand is wearing a sword. Then they collect their bowl and leave again.
Ingtar remarks that he would never have thought that Maidens of the Spear would ever stop once they were veiled, and Erith assures them that the Aiel would never break the Pact once they were reminded about it, and explains that the Aiel have come for sung wood, which she is very proud about since Stedding Tsofu has two Treesingers. They are rare nowadays, though she has heard that they have a talented young Treesinger in Stedding Shangtai. Loial blushes but she doesn’t seem to notice, and Perrin mutters that he doesn’t believe that the Aiel are there for sung wood at all. He thinks they are looking for He Who Comes With the Dawn, and Mat adds that they’re looking for Rand.
Rand has to wait for an explanation until after Erith sees them settled into an Ogier house that’s clearly intended for guests, although everything is a little too big to be comfortable for humans. Rand demands to know why the Aiel would be looking for him, and Perrin and Mat tell him about meeting Urien. Mat’s reasoning is that, since Aiel never live outside the Waste and since Rand might be Aiel, he could very well be the person they are looking for. Rand protests, despite his memories of the words of the Amyrlin and Ingtar and Tam, and Mat apologizes under Perrin’s disapproving stare.
Despite the comfort of the stedding (Hurin remarks that he’s never smelled anywhere that hadn’t had any killing, except from accidents) Loial seems ill at ease, and Rand discovers that this is because he is worried that, as a young male acting in a rather un-Ogier fashion, the women of Stedding Tsofu will think that he needs a wife to settle him down. He explains to Rand and Mat that, amongst the Ogier, it is the woman and her mother who arrange the marriage with the prospective husband’s mother, and that the man himself has no say.
Half of our marriages take place between stedding; groups of young Ogier visit from stedding to stedding so they can see, and be seen. If they discover I’m Outside without permission, the Elders will almost certainly decide I need a wife to settle me down. Before I know it, they’ll have sent a message to Stedding Shangtai, to my mother, and she will come here and have me married before she washes off the dust of her journey. She’s always said I am too hasty and need a wife. I think she was looking when I left. Whatever wife she chooses for me… well, any wife at all won’t let me go back Outside until I have gray in my beard. Wives always say no man should be allowed Outside until he’s settled enough to control his temper.”
Mat scoffs and says that it isn’t that way for humans, but Rand isn’t so sure. He thinks of how Egwene had seemed to set her sights on him when they were young, how Egwene’s mother had then taken an interest in him and even taken Tam aside, while complaining that Tam had no wife to talk to, and even though Rand and Egwene never made any promises to each other, it seemed to be commonly accepted that they would be together. He remarks to Mat that he thinks they do things the same way.
Just then, Juin returns and asks them all to follow him to meet the Elders. Loial seems concerned, but Rand and Mat promise that they will make sure the Elders don’t stop Loial from coming with them. Which leaves only the Ways to worry about.
Thom Merrilin, you are so cool. I love him, even though I am very angry at Jordan for inventing a female character just so he could kill her so Thom has another dead person to motivate him back into Rand’s sphere. I mean honestly, you couldn’t come up with anything else? Thom was already missing the Game, not to mention he has a temper and a great deal of pride—surely we could have come up with a more creative way to rope him back into the plot rather than inventing a really cool girl who wants to be a gleeman and then immediately murdering her for plot. I understand that Cairhien is a dangerous place and all, but a fridge is still a fridge.
That being said, it has been nice to get a little more into Thom’s head, and it’s given me impetus to sit back and consider his character a bit more thoroughly. Back when he was telling Rand and Loial about Dena in Chapter 26, I was annoyed when he told them that being a gleeman was no job for a woman. It smacked of so much sexism, especially when she was so clear that she wants to see the world. But then I remembered that Thom was once a court bard himself, and having seen the way the bard at Barthanes’s party regarded the gleemen around him, I figured Thom’s dismissal of the gleeman’s life for Dena really is just because it’s not the one he wanted for himself. It really got to me that, upon realizing he has to leave Cairhien, Thom’s first impulse is to go back to Caemlyn—his home, and one he’s not safe in anymore, either. So while I still think he was wrong not to take Dena’s desire to see the world seriously, I know that in Thom’s mind being a bard is a much more desirable life. I imagine, too, that he was living vicariously though her, a bit, seeing her potential and the future she could have.
I giggled to myself at the comparison between Thom being “just” an old gleeman and Rand being “just” a shepherd. Thom, there is so much more to you than you let on. Perhaps it’s time you stop assuming that Rand is exactly what he appeared to be when you first met him in the Two Rivers. You should know as well as anyone that appearances aren’t everything, and that lords and ladies often aren’t the true nobility. Not to mention that you’re just assuming that Rand can’t be the channeler because you can’t conceive of why the Aes Sedai wouldn’t immediately gentle him. But you said yourself that the Aes Sedai invented the Great Game—you should know better than to assume you could ever know what they would do!
Okay, I get it, Fain is a very bad guy who kills people and feeds them to Trollocs and stuff. Honestly, how does he have any followers left at this point? Rand has killed a bunch of Fain’s Trollocs, and Fain has fed a bunch of Darkfriends to the Trollocs; granted, I don’t know how many he had in the group to start with, but those numbers have got to be seriously dwindling by now.
Anyway, I think Jordan hit the pinnacle of illustrating the monstrous-murder side of Fain when he compared the Darkfriends trying to explain their worth to him and the screams of the Trollocs murdering all the villagers. There was something poetic (in a horrible way) there that really conveyed how Fain’s mind works, and I think after that and the Fade, further descriptions of his murdering and torturing just feel like more of the same. We already know that he feeds any Darkfriends who don’t immediately obey him to the Trollocs, and we already know he let the Trollocs kill all the villagers they captured, including the children, so I didn’t really need to hear about more cookpots and more child torture. What does really creep me out in the narration is when Fain observes how he always does well “where men are tense and afraid” and how the more he learns about the suppressive cast system and the Truth Seekers and all the suspicion and danger of the Seanchan society, the more eager he is because this is the sort of thing he works with.
I wonder how much of Padan Fain is really left in this person. Fain’s sanity was pretty shredded when we saw him in Fal Dara in The Eye of the World, and it’s a little unclear how Mordeth’s possession works. Clearly this person has a sense of himself as Padan Fain, but in his goals, perspectives, and mannerisms he seems much more Mordeth than the once-peddler turned Darkfriend turned Ba’alzamon’s hound. I suspect some of his joy in terrorizing the Darkfriends might come from Fain’s own memories of being tortured and abused by the servants of the Dark One—there’s probably a perverse pleasure in seeing other people cooked up for the Trollocs’ dinner, considering that Fain spent some time being forced to sleep in a cookpot, to remind him of his place. But his motivations are all Mordeth.
He wants what Mordeth wants, to be the Grima Wormtounge whispering in a king or high lord’s ear, gaining power but not ruling. When we’re in his POV in Falme, everything he notices is focused on that one goal, and it’s interesting that he never considers using the Horn for himself. Surely he could find a way to get someone to open it for him, as he expected to need to do for Turak. (Also, it was really funny when he got angry that Turak knew how.) But Fain seems incapable of thinking outside the box of whatever the essence of Mordeth was. He wants to recreate exactly the life Mordeth had, using basically the same tactics. I wonder if he is even capable of wanting other things, of growth or change, or if he’s basically just two tormented souls running like old software, one reduced to a love of torture and need for revenge on Rand, one made up entirely of a drive to re-create the circumstances of Aridhol’s destruction.
How does Mordeth-Fain know all this stuff about Artur Hawkwing, anyway? I think that the fall of Aridhol pre-dates Hawkwing by quite a bit, so Mordeth would have been already trapped in Shadar Logoth. It seems unlikely that he would know much about what was going on in the outside world, and I can’t think of where he would have gotten this information once he was out in the world again. The Fain half certainly wouldn’t know it.
Fain might not be interested right now, but I am so curious about the damane. At first I thought maybe both the chained women and their handlers in the lightning-bolt dresses were channelers, but now I’m wondering if it’s just the damane themselves. The silver chains are probably some kind of Age of Legends artifact that gives the holder control over the channeler and their power.
Okay, I was definitely under the impression that the Horn could only be blown once. If it’s possible to use it all the time, what’s the big deal about the temptation to use it before the right moment? Lord Agelmar was tearing himself up over it; granted he might not have felt that he had the right to be the sole owner of the Horn, but he could still have used it to help the Aes Sedai and the forces of the Light and such. Is it possible that Turak knows more about the Horn even than Moiraine and the Amyrlin? He does seem to have a lot of knowledge about the Age of Legends. I guess the Seanchan have kept better track of these things than the people in the main part of the world. Perhaps because they maintained the unity that Hawkwing created, while the rest of the world fell apart and lost more of the information that remained after the Breaking? But if everyone knew you could use the Horn multiple times but also seal it to one person, that would be a great way to reduce the likelihood of Darkfriends being able to use it.
Turak’s name sounds like a Vulcan name to me, and I can’t help but imagine him with that haircut, even though that’s not how he’s described. Despite the very real threat he poses, there’s something almost comical about him, the way he strokes his fingernails over things and seems to be lazily half asleep all the time. The way he drawls out how boring the land is and the way he keeps people around just to amuse him doesn’t help either.
It’s very interesting to see the Seanchan culture in contrast to that of Cairhien; they have a lot of similarities in their strict class structures and rigid rules of propriety, but while the Seanchan seem to exploit those class differences even more—they have slavery, and the mostly-naked girls seem to be a regular part of society, etc.—they also seem to have a sense of loyalty that I don’t think many in Cairhien share. Turak’s loyalty to the Empress is a stark contrast to the rivalry of Barthanes and Galldrian, anyway.
And speaking of those two, I expect Galldrian had Barthanes murdered and Thom framed for it? Maybe? Since he clearly was trying to frame Barthanes for Dena’s murder, that makes sense. Fain can’t have done it because he was already at or near Toman Head, and it doesn’t really strike me as traditional Darkfriend style, unless there was a very specific goal to be achieved. But what?
And now Fain gets to hang out with Bayle Domon, apparently. Look out Captain! Seriously, I’m gonna be worried about him now.
Um, Perrin, did you forget that you and wolves have already been in a stedding before? That’s kind of how all the wolfbrother thing got serious, what with Hopper trying to protect you and you killing the Whitecloak who killed him. Seems odd that Jordan would make that mistake, but he was probably just trying to remind the reader of how steddings work, which is just as well because I’d rather forgotten and it hasn’t been as long for me as it would have been if I’d been reading the books as they came out. I actually wish we’d gotten a bit more information from Loial in this section; I’m very curious as to why the steddings prevent channeling, and how. Is it something deliberately made by the Ogier, or a natural effect of their presence? Why would a place and a people so intimately tied to nature and the world cause there to be a block between channels and the very thing that creates the world? And for that matter, what is it about the stedding‘s properties that creates such a connection between Ogier and stedding that the Longing could develop?
There are so many logistical questions I don’t even know where to start. It does make thematic sense that a place which doesn’t allow any violence or fighting would also stop people from being able to channel, since it is such a powerful physical advantage over non-channelers, including the Ogier themselves. Perhaps the creation of the steddings is somehow similar to some of the great objects from the Age of Legends, since we know there were items that were created to affect channelers in various ways. We also know that it is possible for channelers of the One Power to block or destroy the ability to channel in others, so perhaps there is a connection there.
We did get more information from Loial about the Longing, however, which is in some ways reminiscent of the Elves’ Sea Longing in The Lord of the Rings. It’s an interesting phenomenon because it allows these myth-like, non-human characters to exist in the world of The Wheel of Time and yet also be separated from it in a significant way. Many things from earlier days are fading and being lost, and the Longing makes the Ogier part of that loss, in a way. They can only be tourists in the larger world, just as Tolkien’s Elves knew they couldn’t call Middle Earth home forever.
I am also reminded of the Ents again, not just because of the Ogier relationship to trees and the sill of creating sung wood, but also because the loss of the steddings during the breaking reminded me a little of the loss of the Entwives. Indeed, the Ogier gender relations seems similar to that of Ents. Ent men were wild wanderers while Ent women preferred to stay in one place and raise organized gardens; and male Ogier seem to have a streak of wanderlust that their female counterparts feel they need to tame.
But the Ogier aren’t just Elves or Ents. They’re also hobbits! They live in giant hobbit holes and I am so in love with that.
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The Ruin of Kings
Overall, this section has brought Jordan’s rather antiquated-feeling gender dynamics back to my attention again. It makes total sense to me that there might be one or even several cultures where men might be the face of authority while women are actually in charge through manipulation and sneakiness, but the fact that every culture we’ve learned about has had the same dynamic with just slightly different cultural trappings is getting a bit annoying. It remains to be seen if the Seanchan are like this, but the women of Shienar had a very similar attitude as the Ogier ladies, which is again very similar to the women of Emond’s Field. And the women of Cairhien… well, as far as we’ve seen they just play Daes Dae’mar through sex. Even Dena is guilty of this, thematically speaking. And the fact that the Aes Sedai are the greatest manipulators of all just reinforces this fact.
Given that men, in this Age at least, are responsible for the “original sin” of the world of The Wheel of Time, I sort of wish they were the ones with the reputation for being tricky and only being trusted to run things from behind the scenes. It’s interesting to see the subversion of the trope, but it isn’t really applied anywhere besides to the Dragon and society’s association of male channelers with the Dark One.
Loial’s crush on Erith is adorable, though. The narration, and Loial himself, remind us from time to time that he is young for an Ogier, but this is one of the most effective ways it has managed it so far. Also Mat forgetting to be encouraging was pretty funny.
Perhaps the Aiel will disrupt some of the standard gender-roles we keep seeing play out in The Wheel of Time. Granted, they don’t seem to have a male equivalent to “marrying the spear,” but I’m sure we’ll get to see more of their society before too long. And now I understand exactly what the phrase “black-veiled Aiel” means. It’s a neat little detail. But I do wonder who the Aiel women thought Rand was. Their reaction suggests that they might believe he is one of their own, but he clearly isn’t dressed or behaving like an Aiel and he’s with the Shienarans, with whom the Aiel clearly have a deal of enmity. Perhaps they think he is some kind of deserter? Do the Aiel have those? Or maybe they think he is someone else looking for He Who Comes With The Dawn?
Also, what is the deal with the Aiel referring to the countries outside the Waste as “the land of the Treekillers” and why do the Ogier call them “little sister”? It reminds me of the way the Green Man called Loial “little brother,” but that made sense to me because I assumed that their species were distantly related or something. How do the Aiel relate to the Ogier’s connection to trees; they live in the desert, after all.
So many questions, but the only way to answer them is to keep reading! Next week we tackle Chapters 36 and 37, and I can’t allude to what’s in them this week because I haven’t started them yet! But there’s gonna be some more Ogier, and some dangerous traveling. And Trollocs, probably. There’s almost always Trollocs.
See you in the comments!
Sylas K Barrett loves trees, and would very much like to visit a stedding, even if the chairs are too tall.
OP:
I won’t say that this is not a fridge, because it is by definition, but I will say that this isn’t just about getting Thom back into the main plot of the story with Rand. You’ll have to read on, but I think its obvious from the text of this chapter that Thom at least intends to murder Galldrian, the King of Cairhein. I’m not sure what other motivation would be sufficient to get Thom to take that suicidal action.
No Trollocs in Seanchan (ever, since the Breaking) = no Trolloc Wars. The Trolloc Wars are like the Dark Ages. Moiraine has said that almost as much knowledge was lost during the Trolloc Wars as during the Breaking. The Seanchan didn’t have this period in their history, so presumably, they have books from the Age of Legends that were lost to the Westlands and the Aes Sedai.
Or, you know, that could just be the way men and women see themselves. The reality of what has been presented is far less straightforward than this statement you have made, in my opinion.
But most people in this world don’t think of it as “the men broke the world.” They think of it as “those who use the Power broke the world.” Why do you think the Children of the Light have gained such a foothold in society? Because they prey upon this thinking, and reinforce it.
Also, the Aes Sedai are manipulative because they had to be after the Trolloc Wars, due to the creation of the Three Oaths. And maybe its 2000 years of this that has led to the gender issues you are pointing out. When we get to see some other cultures that haven’t been influenced by Aes Sedai bound by the Three Oaths, you should revisit these thoughts.
Also, what you are seeing with Ogier will be // undercut // in the very next chapter. Their leadership is completely // egalitarian //. (Whited a couple words out. I think they’re safe for you to read though. -AP)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but haven’t we already covered // ‘Laman’s Sin’ // in previous entries, thus explaining the term // Treekiller // ?
@2:
That would be a very difficult thing to have pieced together at this point in the story. Yes, it has been referred to, but putting it in context with the word // “Treekiller” // would be very difficult, since we haven’t had any Aiel perspective on the // Aiel War // yet.
OP:
If you pick up on what this is actually about without getting help it will be the most impressive bit of analysis you’ve ever done on this read. There is an answer to this question that can be sleuthed out in the text. Eventually. Maybe.
I’ll just say there will be some more twists on the gender relations although, yes, in general – things are a bit flipped with women tending to be more in control given the metaphysical realities of this world. Some rule through subtlety/sneakiness, and some more overtly.
Where did you get the impression the Horn can be used more than once? Turak states that once it’s blown, it becomes an ordinary horn.
Yes, Fain is the worst. And you will learn much more about the Seanchan, Ogier, Aiel, etc :)
LIsaMarie@5:
Not quite. Turak states that once its blown, it becomes an ordinary horn for anybody else. The implication there is that it is not just a horn for the person who blows it. And its this distinction that makes it dangerous for Turak to blow the horn. The Empress would assume that Turak means to become more than her heir, as he states. The Empress would think he meant to conquer Seanchan and take the Empire from her.
Dena might as well have been wearing a red dress. Surely we all knew the girl was doomed the minute Thom said no more adventures for him?
I agree with @1, mostly. There is no getting around that, in 2018, the way any given close-third-person narrator in WoT talks about gender can get really, really annoying. However, I do still think that about 90% of the annoying can be removed, and even start very interesting discussions, if you take the perspective that Jordan writes ONLY in the close third, and that therefore literally everything in the narration is one character’s opinion. Reading what characters say about gender in counterpoint to what Jordan has male and female characters actually do is far more interesting and far less annoying. And I think that one of the biggest structural strengths of WoT is that Jordan resists having any character drop out of true close third and turn into an author mouthpiece. He buries us 100% in the thought patterns of an alternate world that looks suspiciously like both our own and Generic Fantasy World, but leaves us to decipher whose thought patterns are accurate relative to events and whose are, to varying degrees, incorrect.
On the other hand, he is using a gender binary. It’s a very complicated “binary” with individuals at every conceivable point on the spectrum of temperaments, but it is a binary.
Spoiler section:
//Oh man, poor Sylas is tired of Fain ALREADY? That’s. . .early. Ouch.//
//Has anyone else been waiting with sadistic anticipation for when Sylas really figures out what damane are? I hope this hasn’t just become an anticlimax and that Egwene’s captivity still socks him in the stomach. It’s such a central moment in the series, in terms of character and theme.//
//Question about the TV version: I am genuinely wondering whether, in 2018, playing the gender binary exactly as written will fly. Trans issues are so front and center right now in a way they were not in the 1980s. You could actually do a fascinating arc for an existing AS character by rewriting her as a transwoman. She begins channeling as a young teen, possibly still male-presenting, is abused and in danger of her life from people around her and possibly considers suicide, but encounters an openminded AS who is able to tell her that she is actually channeling saidar? it would work in-universe, since the Power is clearly tied to the soul, not the body, and you could easily work trans people into Jordan’s world without really messing with the cosmology by presenting them as misaligned between biology and soul. Perhaps even graft this idea onto Verin’s never-explained origin story involving a death sentence in Far Madding? Just thoughts. Please, any trans persons on this forum, this is well-intended speculation on writing the story to be less binary. I’m not trans, so I may have gotten some wording less than ideal.//
Almost correct, but not quite. Arthur Hawkwing was about a 1000 years after the Trolloc Wars, and thus Luthair Paendrag Mondwin and his armies came to the Seanchan continent from a hemisphere that had come through the Trolloc Wars already. Your point still stand, though: there likely would have been books in Seanchan that didn’t exist east of the Aryth Ocean, not even in the White Tower. So while the current Seachan might not have known about certain things when they arrived on Seanchan, there might have been books preserved on the newly discovered continent that could have taught them.
Whether that includes information about the Horn is of course something that remains to be seen.
Jordan was really trying to subvert a lot of gender tropes. He doesn’t always get it right, but almost every character who comments on gender is entirely unreliable.
// I think this is one of the subtler pivot point in the series. The fridging is obnoxious but the consequences are huge. At the moment, it looks like it’s progressing Thom’s character arc but it’s really setting up one of the central political conflicts. Ultimately, Thom’s impending vengeance helps define what the post-series world looks like. //
// Verin being trans would be delicious. It would really help counter the problem of the most “trans” person we see is one of the Forsaken. As a another option, Min could easily be read as non-cis and she clearly disagrees with the rules of how to present as female. //
@9:
I’m confused about what you mean. I didn’t say that Luthair came before the Trolloc Wars. I’m well aware he came after. But there were never Trollocs in Seanchan after the Breaking. Turak knows the entire history of Seanchan, not just from the point after Luthair travelled to Seanchan. He says there were never Trollocs. Why would he be meaning just from the point after Luthair arrived? // The conquest of Seanchan is detailed in The Big Book of Bad Art. Luthair’s invasion of Seanchan was much like the Romans, they adopted many of the cultural practices (and the history) of those they conquered in order to integrate with them. I don’t think there was ever a Trolloc War in Seanchan. How would the Trollocs get there from the Blight? It isn’t connected. //
@10:
Agreed. The ramifications of // Thom’s murder of Galldrian // are far-reaching and effect almost everything that comes after in the plot of the series. Not just after the // Last Battle //. Everything from tSR on is massively influenced by this action.
mutantalbinocrocodile@8:
The idea that gender is not binary didn’t exactly have a lot of penetration in the United States from 1986 to 1990, when these words were conceived and written. There are hardly any works of fantasy, or any other works of commercial fiction, that would have presented anything other than binary gender (for humans at least) during that time period. I’m not saying they didn’t exist, but they would have been very, very few and far between.
That doesn’t mean someone can’t be annoyed by it, or shouldn’t express that annoyance, but some responsibility has to be accepted by the reader that when they chose to read a story that was created 30-35 years ago, they are bound to encounter ideas they’ll find either outdated, or even outright offensive, and that the author quite literally didn’t know any differently, and certainly didn’t believe anyone would be offended when they wrote it.
If the reader desires to stay in their bubble and not be exposed to ideas and beliefs that run counter to their own, its generally a bad idea to read something written a generation ago. Please note I’m not saying you feel this way, mutantalbinocrocodile. I know you were just pointing out the discrepancy between The Wheel of Time and how gender is viewed today.
@8 – //Re: transsexuals. This is Robert Jordan’s made up world, not the real world. Not everything has to be politically correct. Having said that, however, there is trans representation already in the book. Sort of. There’s that Forsaken who gets reincarnated into a woman’s body but still channels saidin. So that can be the trans representation right there.//
Austin@14:
It is a made up world, but only in the way every novelist’s world is made up. Robert Jordan very explicitly places The Wheel of Time in our world. Or I should say, he very explicitly places our world as an Age in The Wheel of Time.
@14 // I would recommend against touting one of the most unpleasant people in the book as evidence it has trans representation. If the TV show people try that, social media will roast them alive. //
Morgase is queen of Andor, and Elayne is daughter-heir, i.e., her successor. We will see more female rulers who openly hold power.
Jordan clearly didn’t think his gender-flipped world would look exactly like ours. He put a lot of thought into how that world would look different (and not look different). Not that any of that means you have to agree with him.
I’ll add to (#1) and (#8) by pointing out that, while “acquiring and holding power through manipulation and sneakiness” is certainly one way to describe the gender dynamics that exist in a few of the cultures we have seen thus far — although it should be noted that Andor (it pays to remember here that the Two Rivers, while technically a part of Andor, is so separated both culturally and politically that it should probably be considered a different culture altogether) has a Queen who seems to rule with great honesty and straightforwardness from the one scene we’ve seen her in — an other way of looking at it would be that women in Jordan’s world use more subtle and intelligent means of acquiring power, while men use more blunt and unsophisticated methods. Gender stereotypes don’t always have to be bad, you know? Especially if they are used to achieve results that are often the exact opposite from the gender norms we see in our own world.
Also: how many chapters have we spent in Cairhien? Sylas, is it really justified to say that Cairhienin women only use sex in the Game of Houses when we have seen so little of Cairhienin culture? Wouldn’t that be judging a culture without really knowing anything about it? And I know that this is a fictional culture, and you were assessing Jordan’s gender views instead of the Cairhienin ones, but isn’t one of the strongest underpinnings of our fight for Social Justice [note that I am very consciously not including a common term for a person who fights for a cause here, because that term preceded by the words “Social” and “Justice” has a whole range of negative connotations that I am taking great pains trying to avoid here] that we should strive to avoid forming definitive notions about groups of people if we really don’t have enough information to go off of? I certainly think it is, which is why I try to hold off on solidifying impressions on fictional groups of people into definitive conclusions before I am relatively certain I have a great deal of information to go off of. True, this means I have less opportunity to judge possible weaknesses in writing, but my moral conviction in avoiding presuppositions and prejudices is more important to me.
Dena’s creation and subsequent death (i.e., Dena being a bona fide Fridge Girl) is harder to justify, although Anthony gave a brilliant secondary reason for her inclusion in the story. But I would like to point one thing out — although I would like to stress that this is not going to be a justification as much at it will be an explanation instead. There is a rather important difference between those 2 things.
So here goes. There were no less than 3 ta’veren in the city the night Dena died. As I explained back towards the end of The Eye of the World, “ta’veren” might as well be Old Tongue for “Plot Advancement”. One of the both most brilliant and most infuriating aspects of this invention of Jordan’s is that, really, there is no real distinction between out-of-Universe motivation for things, and in-Universe mechanics; not when any of the 3 ta’veren is involved, at least, and certainly not when ALL THREE are. Now, it stands to reason that as the Ultimate Force of Plot Advancement, the ta’veren effect would cover both bad things and good things. Not just bad and good things from the Characters’ perspective, mind; but also bad and good things from a narrative / plot / trope point of view. In short: there is no reason to assume ta’veren would not produce Fridging at least occasionally. This story of Thom and Dena could, theoretically, be seen as Jordan saying that the ta’veren effect is pretty indiscriminatory. Don’t expect just nice things to happen. And don’t expect it to cover only the nice Tropes, either.
Again, to reiterate: not a great defence, that. In fact, I’m not sure it counts as a defence at all. It’s a bit of a “Get Out of Jail Free Card”, and those tend to be excuses as opposed to substantive defences. As for this one, I agree that the role Jordan gave Dena is a flaw in the story. Well…. that is to say…. apart from the fact that if a Fridging or 2 is the price I have to pay for the sheer literary genius that is the ta’veren concept, I will pay it. Not gladly. Not gladly by any stretch of the imagination. But, at least for me personally, I am willing, under protest, to pay that price.
Overall (apart from the Dena example, which was a valid criticism), I would advise you (Sylas, that is) to look deeper than just whether a given culture has gender stereotypes that exist in our own world, and declaring anything that has any automatically bad. Instead, look at how those stereotypes are applied, and the cultural dynamics that they create / that Jordan creates with them, and then decide how truly antiquated Jordan’s views on gender truly are.
@anthony Pero (#11)
Oh, okay. From your comment, it wasn’t clear if you might have gotten confused, if only temporarily. These things happen, after all.
But if you know, then consider my comment a clarification for any other readers who might read both your comment and mine, and who might not have the same knowledge you and I have.
@anthony Pero (#13)
Moreover, I suspect some extremely interesting, deep, but also potentially heavily emotionally charged discussions could be had on whether something that is a spectrum between 2 extremes, with what falls outside of that spectrum being described as “<feature>-less” or “a-<feature>” in relation to the feature in question, should be considered binary or not. This would depend on your definition of “binary”.
Then, when you’ve answered that question (which is about generalized concepts), the next question becomes whether we think that gender is a feature that fits the definition ‘/ description I laid out above.
Regarding WoT gender: // I don’t think we’ve had a chance to see just how different gender roles are among the various nations. What we’ve seen so far is mostly Two Rivers ideas of gender being presented as universal but Saldea and Far Madding ideas are pretty wildly divergent. //
@20:
I don’t think its possible to argue that gender is not binary in The Wheel of Time, at least amongst humans. A homosexual man is still a man. An effeminate man who is straight is still a man. So is an effeminate homosexual man. They all identify as men, whether society accepts them as a “real man” or not. A transgendered man still identifies as a man.
Non-binary genders, to my understanding, are about people not only identifying as a man or a woman, but as something else entirely, or androgynous. The Wheel of Time exhibits no options other than man or woman, even in the case of // Balthamel // later in the series. He is still a he, even though he’s in the // body of a woman //. That’s still binary.
A fun fact about the Aiel is that they’re very inclusive. They live in an inhospitable desert and don’t welcome very many outsiders. They have a distinct look that isn’t seen much of anywhere outside their people. That Rand looks so much like them is odd at the very least.
I’d forgotten that the Ogier called the Aiel “little sister”. Makes me wonder //how much the Ogier remember of the Aiel from the Age of Legends. We never got enough Ogier point of views.//
One of the subtler points of the Wheel of Time is the ongoing conversation Jordan had with gender and gender roles. He certainly didn’t land every point, but it is a conversation in the text. It is something that is often missed on first read throughs. // I’m not sure we ever see anything that could be considered a definitive conclusion to an argument, except, perhaps, that gender roles are created by their society. // As @8 says we see everything as a tight 3rd POV. We’re not getting an author’s ‘this is the object truth’ statement, we’re seeing what individual people think based on what they know.
When looking at the cultures you need to look at what they consider important. That is where you will find the women in power. A lot people look a Shienar and see men as the big, powerful warriors and the women locked away. But if you look at it more in depth you see that the people who have the freedom of movement, who can go anywhere in the castle, are the women not the men. It’s the women watching the entrance to their quarters not men acting as guards. It’s women telling men ‘this far and no further’, not men saying, ‘you stay here’. It’s a very important distinction. The women hold the power here, they say where the men can and can not go.
What does Shienar hold important? Home and people and a safe place to stay. They hold back the Blight because they have to, but the stability and safety of home is most important. And women rule the home. Anyone can swing a sword. The real work of running the country is back at home.
It’s really common for people to go into the series expecting to see our society, but flipped. Only that’s not how it would work anymore than sexism looks exactly the same in the US, Japan, France, and Russia. Every society values different things and you need to look at what the society values to see where the sexism is present.
Again, Jordan doesn’t get this right all the time. If he’d started writing this in the mid 90’s or 00’s instead of the 80’s we’d probably see very different things. It is something you have to look beyond the surface for if you really want to engage in the discussion that Jordan is putting forth though. This was not something he was hitting people in the face with and aspects of it become more prevalent as the series progresses.
// In particular men dealing with Aes Sedai is very relatable to me as a woman talking to men in power.//
Another thing to consider is something Zena says to Thom after Dena is killed. I don’t have the book in front of me so I don’t have the exact quote, but it’s something along the lines of men always thinking with their heart and their muscles where women think with their heads. Meaning that men are the irrational emotional ones and women are the calm rational thinkers. This is a prevailing sentiment, although not universal, in the world.
@23, Surely you mean ‘exclusive’ not ‘inclusive’?
Regarding @18,
Fridging doesn’t really bother me on a moral level. The fact that fridging happens more often to girls than to guys is a function of the narratives of these kinds of stories being written from the perspective of straight men. Fix that problem, and fridging no longer becomes a gender issue.
Ultimately, the real problem with fridging is that its lazy writing — and I’m not sure that applies in this case. Sometimes you are left with two options to get the character to do what you need them to do for the story — create the proper motivation for the character to do what you need them to do (which may involve creating a love interest just in order to kill said love interest), or have them act out of character. I’ll take option 1 every time. And in this particular case, Jordan took the time to give Dena a backstory, her own dreams and wishes, and her own motivations outside of Thom. Not bad for one single scene.
@24 Yes, one of those things were you don’t see the error until after hitting post. Despite the amount of editing beforehand.
*sigh*
@26:
Although its not wrong to view the // Aiel as inclusive // , at least not in the way we mean the term in modern western society. Just not to outsiders. They seem to have a very // inclusive society // in regards to gender roles and sexual issues.
@13, no offense taken. We’re inevitably getting into some emotionally tricky territory here. I don’t in the slightest think that WoT is, on the whole, sexist (occasional cringe moments and fridging aside). But I agree with you that it’s firmly in 1980s-1990s norms, and the fact that those include binary gender is an interesting challenge for 2018 new readers. Can I also say congrats to everyone in this group managing to keep it civil as we tread on some tough territory, with no one saying anything that needed to be modded yet? Go us!
//Balthamel is no way a transwoman as Halima. He’s essentially male (i.e., still channels saidin, which is about as essential as you can get in this cosmological setup), and for most of his internal monologue as Halima does seem to still consider himself to be a man put into a female body against his will. We know that he’s not even making more than a surface effort to mimic female behaviors; Mat notices that he still tries to lead in partner dancing (and no, this is definitely not inevitable; learning the non-gender-normative role in partner dancing is totally possible with a bit of talent and motivation). He’s proving the existence of the cosmic absolute gender binary, not subverting it.
Likewise, I agree with @22 that, in the text as written, there is absolutely no way to make gender other than binary. While temperaments and behavior types vary all over the place and in ways that don’t necessarily map onto stereotypes, in-world or out-of-world, of “masculine” or “feminine”, every human is either a man or a woman, and this identity is so stable that it can survive reincarnation, creepy-Dark-One-body-snatching, etc. In addition, I think it’s very hard to argue that the world isn’t also binary on a cosmic level. Given that the One Power emanates from the Creator according to gendered halves, and that the True Power emanates from the Dark One and is ungendered, I don’t see how you can read that except that the Creator includes both genders and the Dark One neither. Which elevates “having gender” to the level of a cosmic good–though that is true of BOTH genders, and if you accept that Nakomi=the Creator, the only time that we see him/her, he/she manifests as female. (Also, Rand does not gender the Big Voice.)
I agree with @20 that some very complex discussions can be had on whether/to what extent/how a spectrum with two defined end points might still be a binary construct. I think this group is grown-up enough to have them, though I agree they are emotionally fraught and need to be handled with dignity.
All of which is inevitably going to add up to a major, challenging issue in the 2nd generation of WoT’s reception.//
Sylas: I think a big part of the issue you’re having with respect to the nature of gender roles in most of the societies that we’ve encountered is a factor of the POV’s we’ve had thusfar in the series. Keep in mind; RJ kept very very very strict POV focus, and so we only get to read what people are thinking and interpreting from their own narrow viewpoint. To this point in the series, we’ve barely gotten any female POV’s — I think two from Moiraine, a handful from Egwene and Nynaeve, and that’s it. So of course we’re seeing everything from male perspectives. It’s not a spoiler to say that as the series progresses, female POV’s become more and more prevalent, to the point where a lot of the books in the series have more female POV’s by word count than male POV’s. When you say things like the Ogier or Emond’s Field are “cultures where men might be the face of authority while women are actually in charge through manipulation and sneakiness”… I think you might be taking that opinion from the internal thoughts of the people whose POV’s you’ve been reading, rather than by an objective view of what’s actually happening in the reality of the world.
@@.-@: Ok, I’ll admit — I’ve read this series at least 20 times, some parts of it more, and I have absolutely no idea what the answer to that question is. //The question being, “whence steddings?” Through what mechanism did they first come to exist in the world? You could maybe make some kind of argument that they’re holes in the multiverse which come from outside of it, since they don’t have reflections in tel’aran’rhiod, but that doesn’t answer the question of how they got there in the first place.// I don’t believe that’s a question that’s ever answered anywhere in the texts, and if Sylas can figure it out I’ll be a bit more than impressed.
@28:
That last thought applies to all “classic” fantasy moving forward. Sort of like what Golden Age science fiction has gone through. Comics have had the benefit of rebooting themselves every 10-12 years, but that is unlikely to happen with books, given Life of Author + 70 years copyright terms.
On “what are stedding“?
//I don’t think there is a definitive answer in-text either. I always took them as a natural phenomenon rather than constructed. Also, if you want to get very technical about it, they don’t block the Source; they block access to the Source. Kind of like: if you put a computer in a Faraday cage, it won’t work, but that doesn’t mean that inside the Faraday cage you are somehow creating a pocket universe where one of the four elementary forces doesn’t even exist. I guess I always figured that the stedding were like naturally-occurring One Power Faraday cages scattered over the landscape, sort of in the spirit of “you really, really can’t take ANYTHING in the natural world absolutely for granted with no exceptions”.//
@29, 31:
Its less of a confirmed fact as much as a convincing theory (to me at least). What people have pieced together (on a broad level — the details are argued ad nauseam — is this):
// The Ogier come from a different dimension (not a different portal stone version of the dimension Rand lives in), like the Aelfin and Eelfin. The stedding is actual land from that dimension, somehow translated to Randland. Because the stedding is still somehow partly in that other dimension, the OP doesn’t work, because the OP doesn’t exist in that dimension.
People argue about whether or not the TP would work in a stedding. I think it would, personally, because its derived from the Dark One, who exists everywhere, simultaneously. But I don’t hold to that very firmly.
The Book of Translation, which the Elders are considering “opening”, would remove the stedding, and the Ogier, from this dimension, and return them fully to their original dimension.
I also believe that originally, in the Age of Legends, the Ogier stedding was a single place. I think the breaking scattered pieces of that land (still attached to that other dimension) around the globe. //
Again, this resides firmly in the “theory” camp. Hence the “Maybe” tagged on to my original post @@.-@.
What we know for fact is that the // Book of Translation will remove the Ogier from the world entirely. We know that the point of using the Book of Translation is that the it would remove the Ogier from the dangers of the Last Battle. We also know that the result of the Last Battle will effect all the Portal Stone worlds as well. I think its safe to assume that the Ogier Elders know that. So it doesn’t make sense that the Book of Translation would just take them to a different Portal Stone world — that wouldn’t make them safe. So, unless the Book of Translation is something that makes them mass suicide, its reasonable to deduce that it takes them… somewhere else. Somewhere other.
We also know there are no other sentient creatures in Randland that weren’t constructs of the Power other than Humans and Ogier. We know that the Aelfin and the Eelfin dimension is an entirely different dimension, not just a Portal Stone world. //
@32: I mean, maybe, sure, but it still doesn’t answer the question of //how the stedding came to be in Randland in the first place.//
@32 //The singular stedding theory is an interesting one. I don’t know that we get anything like enough textual support to argue one way or another on that, especially since one of the only linguistically consistent features of the Old Tongue is that it doesn’t mark singular v. plural nouns. You can have multiple angreal, multiple damane, multiple Aes Sedai. The word stedding bears a particularly strong resemblance to an English singular gerund, but that could be coincidence.//
@33:
Read my update to the post. In that theory, the stedding would have been // brought to Randland by the Book of Translation //. As to the why and how… as I said, arguments ad nauseam. No way to even guess from the text.
@34:
Its a logical extension of the theory. There’s no reason that the Ogier would have // brought the stedding to multiple locations if it was supposed to be some kind of embassy to this dimension. Or a refuge from some trouble on their own world. //
@34, 33:
More speculatory evidence of the theory could lie in the fact that, while Ogier can speak the Old Tongue, // they have their own language and script. The Age of Legends had a single, universal language. Why would the Ogier need their own language in that time? Why wouldn’t they have adopted the Old Tongue and lost their own languages like everyone else? They were significantly more a part of the world back then. But if the stedding was its own, large country, its easier to see them keeping their own language. Especially if, at some point, the Ogier still had contact with their home world. //
I’m glad we’re finally to the end of the Cairhien section. I think from next week through to the end of TGH is one of my favorite sections of the whole series.
Some random thoughts:
If Dina was not involved romantically with Thom, but perhaps his nephew’s daughter who is very promising, would it still work as written in the plot? Would it still be a fridging? What if it was his great-nephew? His friend the innkeeper’s grown child? Would that make it better or worse?
@35 //If correct, and given the personality of the Ogier as a whole, I think it more likely the Stedding (capitalized for one Stedding to rule them all) would have been more of a multi-generational research outpost.//
I found Dena’s death one of the saddest in the series. She was an innocent bystander, with more a more distinctive and appealing personality than most swiftly-killed minor characters. Though she would have gone into a dangerous life eventually, whether as a gleeman or a court bard. ///Never mind that a large part of the continent will become a war zone.///
According to the Big White Book (I think), there is a “Lesser Blight” on the Seanchan continent, originally inhabited by Shadowspawn. Humans wiped out its Trollocs and Myrddraal in the years after the Breaking, ///aided by the “exotic” animals they imported from other worlds via Portal Stones///, though Dragkhar and maybe other creatures still live there. “There were no Trolllocs in Seanchan” contradicts this claim. There were none when Hawkwing’s armies arrived, but they hadn’t always been absent.
Poor Loial. Being forced into a relationship is never good. I was appalled when an asshat man who had previously said he wanted to be friends declared “You’re gonna be my girl” after I said I wasn’t attracted to him. I cut off contact with him after that, glad not to live in a time or place where his intent would be backed and enforced by our entire culture.
Ogier life in a stedding is otherwise enviable though. “They knew and liked who and what they were, and seemed content with themselves and everything around them.” How many humans can say that?
I hadn’t thought of the Ogier Longing as reminiscent of the Tolkien-Elvish Sea Longing, but it is.
I so want a story about Dalar, the Ogier woman who spent ten years among the Sea Folk. ///Though we’re later told that she was an “invalid” after she returned to the stedding, though she continued writing. I don’t recall if that was explicitly to to the Longing.“///
More spoilers:
///“Why, we even had some of the Traveling People, though of course they left when the—“ When the Aiel arrived, presumably. Yes, of course they did. ///
///At least one glossary says that “Even Darkfriends, if truly dedicated, feel uncomfortable within a stedding.” I wonder if that’s influencing Ingtar here.///
Ironic lines of the day:
“Few Darkfriends remain in Seanchan. Those who survive the Seekers for Truth meet the ax of the headsman. It might be amusing to meet a Darkfriend.” Haha, you’re currently talking to one. ///And you might have met Seanchan ones before.///
///Sylas said: “Perhaps they think he is some kind of deserter? Do the Aiel have those?” Weeell, about that…///
This comment has super-big spoilers for the end of the entire series, so don’t read it if you haven’t fully completed everything: I just remembered that in the section where Fain is talking to Turak here, he claims that when Turak blows the Horn of Valere //he can conquer the Aiel Waste and “the land beyond” it. That is, I believe, one of five separate references to Shara that we get in The Great Hunt (although the only reference of Shara by name is, I believe, when Tom is reciting in the inn where Rand first meets him and discovers he’s still alive in Cairhien). I have never understood people who say that Demandred coming with the Sharans in A Memory of Light wasn’t foreshadowed enough, when Shara is mentioned constantly throughout literally every single book of the series.//
Some of the payouts for your questions will require some patience before the answers become fully clear. There was also one conclusion that eventually has some far reaching implications that I feel like you almost deciphered but didn’t quite get there though if you had at this point with the information given I’d just assume you were some kind of wizard, I’m still not entirely convinced that you aren’t. That’s all I will say and also keep up the good work. As for gender stereotypes and how they’re viewed I’ll advise to not confuse character perception to the reality of what’s presented. There’s plenty of tropes and generalization used but overall it’s a very diverse world and while things are binary women aren’t treated as weak, inferior, or secondary aspects to the story and there are many cases where what’s perceived as traditional gender roles for women are upended and societal power dynamics aren’t just patriarchal in WoT.
@39:
I said no Trollocs after the // Breaking, that doesn’t contradict with what you are saying, to my mind. Whether it took them 10 years or 100 years or 500 years to kill them. I realize there were some there while the Breaking was happening. It didn’t take 1000, and there wasn’t a Trolloc invasion of the continent, as there was in the Westlands. I didn’t know about the lesser Blight though. //
@40:
Its the // Demandred being in Shara // to gather them for war part that people complain wasn’t foreshadowed.
So Dena is fridged…to push Thom… I guess it was shocking at the first read. Min implicates that Thom was “a part” of it in Baerlon. Way back in EOtW. She talks about what she sees and says, “You are all a part of it (what I see). I almost wonder why everybody can’t see it.” It was so pervasive to her… The only equivalent in my mind is what Will sees in Stranger things, when he looks and sees the upside-down… I just think that if you have a part to play, the pattern is going to force you back into the game…. as a nuanced reminder…
“If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won’t accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?”
Rand nodded. “I could live on the farm or in Emond’s Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though . . . ” He laughed, and Loial gave a grin that almost split his face in two.”
Nobody likes determinism…probably why AI scares us silly…. It is why being the chosen one stinks… and it stinks to be in the wake of the chosen one too…
@44:
I knew Dena was dead the moment Thom said he wasn’t getting involved anymore. So did my 12 year old. Its a trope for a reason.
@32 I would dispute that based on the Ogier we see //in the Rhuidean sequence in tSR. They mention multiple possible Stedding as they ask if the Aiel have seen any of the Stedding. At this point it’s not so long after the start of the Breaking that these Ogier wouldn’t have been alive and well during the War of Power if not even earlier. They’re operating on lived memory not handed down stories.//
Additonally, //they speak several times throughout the series about finding new/old Stedding. There doesn’t seem to be surprise at the existence of other Stedding, just happiness at finding something lost.//
Finally based on the Big White Book (unreliable narrator to be sure), //we know there are Stedding in Seachan. The Ogier there never suffered the Longing, but there are Stedding. One large chunk of real estate broken up over the breadth of a continent during the breaking I could reasonably accept. Over two continents and an ocean? We’re not shown any other bits of geography that happened with despite discussions on pre and post Breaking mountain ranges.//
It’s a fun theory though.
@46: The only part I’ll quibble with is the geography; //remember that ocean port that’s shown high up on top of a mountain in the Spine of the World in Fires of Heaven? It’s pretty clear that what was ocean became continental landmass and vice-versa during the Breaking.//
@42: Thanks for clarifying. Turak’s statement remains misleading, but things can vanish from cultural memory.
@46:
1. Or, alternately, since it had been a couple human generations by the time the Ogier ask the // Aiel that question, they are already aware that the stedding has been broken and moved, and that they keep moving, based on the destruction // . Or, I’m wrong, which is also a distinct possibility. No way to be sure.
2. Again, they could have easily discovered that the // stedding was broken up at any point in the previous 300 years, especially if the pieces kept moving for some reason // . There may metaphysical factors as well.
3. See #2. Also, do we know that there were multiple continents prior to the Breaking? Perhaps, like in the real world, the world was something like Pangea, and the Breaking is simply the in-world explanation for continental drift.
It is a fun theory, but I’m not tied to that part of it as tightly as I am to the part where the Ogier (and the stedding) are from // another dimension //.
//I agree that there’s abundant foreshadowing of the existence of Shara. Not bothered that Demandred has a shocker reveal in the last book. It doesn’t contradict anything that’s come before (well, except a few throwaway artifacts of Taimandred that kept us arguing blue in the face for ten years lol), and the endgame would have been boring with no shockers. There’s frankly SO many recurrent references to Shara that I’d probably call it a Chekov’s Gun if it wasn’t eventually important.
What I do agree with is that “River of Souls” should have been part of the AMoL canonical text. Demandred is a little too out-of-the-blue and short on thematic significance without it.//
@48:
They can, but since the Big Book of Bad Art (The Big White Book) is an in-world document, the only way for the scholars who wrote what you quoted to obtain that information would have been from the Seanchan themselves.
@50:
I believe that River of Souls IS considered canonical, while what is coming out in Unfettered III is not.
As far as // Taimandred //. That’s a real thing. People who had a chance to peruse RJs notes in Charleston have confirmed that RJ // did an about face on Taimandred //. That’s where half the complaints about // Demandred/Shara // are coming from. For almost half the series, // Demandred couldn’t have been foreshadowed in Shara //, because RJ intended him to be // Taim //. It feels sudden, because it IS sudden. Its tacked on.
This is as trustworthy of a source as exists on the topic of Word of Author: https://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767
Don’t click that unless you want major spoilers for everything after The Shadow Rising.
Note: message edited by moderator to white out one pesky spoiler.
@52
One of your //sections// isn’t whited out. Just so you know…
Edit: nvm, looks like it got fixed.
@39 Wrote ///At least one glossary says that “Even Darkfriends, if truly dedicated, feel uncomfortable within a stedding.” I wonder if that’s influencing Ingtar here.///
/// I would argue the opposite, that this line about the truly dedicated has been added specifically to address that Verin and Ingtar did not show any effects. Based on their actions I wouldn’t consider either truly dedicated. ///
@53, MOD@52:
Thanks for the pick up!
@anthony Pero
I absolutely agree with the main theory //that the stedding are translated from another dimension along with the Ogier, probably with the Book of Translation, and will have to be translated back sometime before the Wheel circles back around.//
I find the secondary theory //(that all the stedding were once united)// fascinating to think about, but ultimately I don’t agree. The conversation referenced above during the //Way-Back ter’angreal sequence// is indicative that //there were always a number of stedding.//
But also, the rules about //how stedding work weigh against it. How could the mad male Aes Sedai have used the One Power to physically split apart the land the One Stedding would have been standing on? The stedding effect should have prevented this. It’s not 100% clear from the canon text, but RJ did say the following that makes me think that any weave directed from outside the stedding to inside the stedding would fizzle, because it is effectively going to a universe where there is no connection to the True Source.
Obviously he’s talking about something different, but not totally unrelated. The only instance that was discussed to my knowledge of a weave potentially working inside a stedding (even if it doesn’t happen in the canon text) would be if a Well were the source of that power. Thus channeling inside the stedding is theoretically possible, it’s just that there is no access to any *external* power source to channel inside the stedding. And therefore you should not be able to channel an enormous rift zone and split apart the One Stedding’s land into thousands of stedding-sized pieces and scatter it across the world. //
@56 // Though you could use a weave to start a process outside a stedding and have the effect continue inside, such as throwing a rock or creating a fault line. Though given the paucity of information, I’m inclined to go with the simplest explanation that there were multiple steddings before the Breaking and they were scattered rather than a single stedding split apart. //
@46, 47, 56, 57:
As part of that process @57 mentions, you could also open a large // Gate // (perhaps with powerful sa’angreals?) and have land, entire cities // (and pieces of the stedding?) fall through the Gate // . I’m sure if I sat and brainstormed some more I could come up with lots of ways to // divide the stedding // and scatter them across the globe that doesn’t contradict what RJ has set up. None of it will convince anyone, though, so I’m not going to bother with figuring out the process by which that could happen. Its enough for me to point out that are numerous ways, and that there’s really no way to say its not possible based on the way // stedding and the One Power work //. To me, the // single-stedding // theory is more about the narrative value of having a // single stedding // as a research outpost, or as an embassy to // another world //, or as a refuge from whatever troubles might have forced them to flee their home, etc. Having multiple // stedding // doesn’t really fit that narrative as well.
And, ultimately, we’ll never know. Its all just speculation for fun.
@8 // The binarity of gender is essential to the whole WoT-world. The one power is divided in male and female parts. There’s a ying-yang concept to many things in WoT. If this series was started today with modern sensibilities it might hjave been different. The only gender fluidity we see is Aran’gar who is a man trapped in a womans body. //
Yep, I absolutely agree with you, @59. The comments in the whited-out part were speculation about the TV adaptation, not comments on the text.
Also, one more comment on Dena, inspired by Sylas’ reference to Thom as “Mr Sexy Mustache Man” (still laughing). . .
//I think the reason why having Dena as a nonromantic apprentice wouldn’t have worked well in the larger story is that she has a secondary purpose besides getting fridged (and while I agree that she is a developed character, relative to her short tenure in the story that kind of makes it “Dr Who-style fridging”, and therefore, I think, still a little lazy in a novel). She’s there to sell to the audience that Thom is still attractive to women and set up the Thom/Moiraine romance. Given how many fans don’t buy Thom and Moiraine it’s worth asking whether it worked, but I suspect that, if we hadn’t seen a beautiful actual twentysomething in a consensual May-December with Thom, the percentage of readers who would have bought him with Moiraine would have dropped to zero.//
About Thom not wanting Dena to be a Gleeman, remember in the last book how much trouble Rand and Mat faced when on their own? Take out the dark friends chasing them and they still went through hell trying to survive while willing to work and entertain people for food and shelter. More NJoften then naught they were set upon by dogs, chased off with farm equipment, slept out in the weather, and even dealt with attempted murder. Andor is the safest and friendliest country in the world at this point. Now image a lone woman making the same trek, as Gleemen often travel alone, putting up with the same hostilities. True there might be some who are more willing to trust a woman and give aid, but the opposite end of the spectrum is also true. A lone woman is considered easy pickings. This is why Aes Sedai have Warders.
Thom is not being sexist, he just knows how the world works better than a twenty year old woman. Thom has seen and traveled the world before and after he was a Court Bard.
“I’m only an old gleeman,” he said from the door. “Who could I possibly be dangerous to?”
One of the best lines in the series.
Something Sylas missed last time and again now that I really expected him to mention, but Moiraine’s house name is // Damodred. She’s Galad’s aunt since she’s his father’s half-sister. Thom has… history with the Damodreds, by way of his time as house, later court, bard for Morgase. Remember what happened to her husband, Sylas?//
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoilers.
I think a fair amount of @64 needs whitespace…
@58 I disagree for a couple of reasons, if steddings were meant as embassies or research centres surely there’d be multiple? All countries have embassies in most other countries, not just one, having one embassy doesn’t make sense to me Same with research centres, they would likely be interested in various areas not just one. As you said, no way of knowing :).
In some ways, it might have been more devastating for Thom to have another nephew die, but it would fit a lot of the rest.
Rand wants Thom back in the adventure? Sorry, Thom’s lost one nephew and he’s not going to risk another.
Thom’s apprentice wants to be a gleeman instead of a court bard? This isn’t a life for a boy. It’s barely a life for a man.
Thom’s nephew dies anyway? After it was made clear that Thom was willing to sacrifice anything and everything to protect him? After he already failed to save another nephew? Yeah, we all know where that’s going.
Just give the innkeeper a beautiful, young daughter or niece who was head over heels for Thom and tempting him with offers of sticking around at the inn she’s going to someday inherit, only to have things abruptly broken off when he becomes too dangerous (she may be head over heels, but she knows how the game of houses is played and isn’t painting a big target on her back for any guy) to remind us that Thom is attractive to women. Maybe throw in a bit where he bemoans having to send a beautiful, young woman away because he shares a room with his nephew.
64: This hasn’t been revealed yet.
Wasn’t the first chapter, the first mention of Tuon? Somethink that Silas missed this time.
Also every group that mentions it is darkfriendfree (Senchean, Whitecloaks are in for a suprise), The only real big group DFfree seems to be the Ogier.
“Honestly, how does he have any followers left at this point?” IMHO this is one of the biggest weaknesses of these books. No matter how many die the numbers of the antagonists are always multiplying rather decreasing. Its managaeble now but as the books get longer…
Re: Gender dynamics, I think this similarity between cultures is the fruit of the similarity between the Aes Sedai and the real life medieval Catholic Church. The same way the Church used its enormous influence in Europe during the post Roman period to embed its generally patriarchal values and philosophies in any culture it came in contact with the Aes Sedai did similar in Jordan’s world but in reverse.
@anthony Pero (#22)
I meant about how it is in our world. Some might say that
– Male
– Female
– Combination thereof
– No gender / Agender
accurately cover what we understand as “gender”. Not in Randland, but in the real world.
The discussion would then centre around 2 questions. First: do you (or anyone else joining the discussion) agree that the above 4 options cover all there is to Gender? And secondly: would those 4 options, together, constitute a binary or wouldn’t they?
There is some very interesting substance regarding definitions and how gender expression works hiding underneath those questions, which we could probably have a lengthy and compelling discussion on should we so choose to do so. I’m not saying that we should, however; primarily due to how strongly emotionally charged such a discussion might become. And seeing how the discussion on suicidal thoughts and the refusal to fight for life — which are not the same thing, but which I think are both bad — I engaged in a few weeks ago went….
But my point isn’t even whether we should have that discussion. My point is that, if we want to make any judgements on Robert Jordan’s gender views, and how good or bad we find those views, based on the fact that the world he created has a gender binary, then it might be worth considering (if at least for ourselves, internally) how far removed a “gender binary” truly is from reality.
@@@@@ 45
The only way Dena could be deader was if she was some kind of cop one day away from retirement.
@@@@@ 66
But the world was united in the Age of Legends. We’re talking about interplanetary / interdimensional diplomacy here (our united AoL Earth government x their united Ogier world). Some countries have an embassy and many consulates in other countries, but that depends on how much communication / travel / immigration happens between the countries and their size.
And now I’m gonna nitpick where you speculated wrongly again. I really like your articles, but I don’t really see the appeal of writing “you’re right” a couple of times, sorry. Here goes:
Yeah, Aes Sedai will let men that can channel run free. Obviously their plots have nothing to do with what they think would be good for the world, and an insane person of mass destruction doesn’t pose any danger to the world at large. Also we have seen and heard of them letting male channelers run free all the time. Rand is in no way special, he is just one in a long line of men who were never in danger from any Aes Sedai.
Irony aside, while I agree with Thom not necessarily knowing everything Aes Sedai might do, this example is ridiculous.
About the Seanchan knowledge of the world: They, like most people in the series, but even more so, believe that what they think is the truth, anybody who thinks otherwise is just stupid. But in this case the rich, connected scholar is right about the ancient arcana.
Barthanes death is textbook Myrdraal.
Just because Loial has wanderlust doesn’t mean that all Ogier men have it. Loial always talks about how he is special among Ogier, about other Ogier don’t usually leave the steddings.
About the Treekiller thing and the relation between Ogier and Aiel, that will be shown in book 4.
@@@@@ 61
I don’t know if I would consider Moiraine / Thom to be a May-December relationship.
Moriaine Damodred was born in 956 NE and Morgase Trakand was born in 957 NE. We don’t know exactly when Thom was born, but he was in Morgase’s court when she ascended to the throne in 972 NE (Morgase was 15 (!!!) shen she did that), helping her achieve that. He had a relationship with the queen, and killed her husband Taringail Damodred in 984 NE, when she was 27. Thom leaves the court after Owyn dies, at 985 NE, when Morgase is 28.
So I assume he is in his 60s when the series begin, which means he was in his late 30s – early 40s when he helped Morgase ascend to the throne. And had a relationship with Morgase in his late 40s.
This means that when Moiraine and Thom have a relationship, at the end of the series, she’s 44 and he’s around 65. She looks ageless (not younger) but she’s much more mature than many other Aes Sedai that are centuries old.
So I don’t think there’s a need to show a twenty-something woman being attracted to Thom. The relationship he ends up with is with a woman in her 40s, which is much closer to his age than Dena’s.
saywot@66:
But that’s exactly the point. In the Age of Legends, there was one // universal government for the whole planet, and one seat of that government. And instantaneous travel. There is no reason to have multiple locations. As a research outpost, you might want multiple locations, depending on what you were studying, I suppose, but as an embassy? No, you only need embassies to be near the seat of power, and there was only one. And Traveling negates the need to be near the seat of power regardless //.
@73:
Pretty sure it was // Slayer //, not a Myrdraal. The crime scene is a lot like others later in the series that we know belong to // Slayer //. Other theories I’ve heard is that its the first appearance of the // Golem // . But I think // Slayer // is more likely. He is the main // assassin // that the Shadow employs on its own people who fail in the tasks assigned to them, and the // Golem // is primarily used when people who can // channel // may be around.
@74
//I agree that they are literally a May-December. But the reader has to work to remember that, especially a reader who is more interested in visualization than doing math on dates that aren’t actually given in the text! In the mind’s eye, Thom and Moiraine LOOK like a mid-twenties beauty marrying a white-haired man. There’s less of a “Wait. . .what???” moment before you even think to do the math given that we’ve already seen Thom with a woman who, frankly, probably looks a bit like Moiraine.
Ok, now I’m kinda skeeved out. . .//
Has anyone got an answer to this as it has stumped me also…
‘How does Mordeth-Fain know all this stuff about Artur Hawkwing, anyway? I think that the fall of Aridhol pre-dates Hawkwing by quite a bit, so Mordeth would have been already trapped in Shadar Logoth. It seems unlikely that he would know much about what was going on in the outside world, and I can’t think of where he would have gotten this information once he was out in the world again. The Fain half certainly wouldn’t know it.’
No-one Fain tortured would have had this info eg about the banner etc.
@78 Best guess (spoilerish)
//He was fed information by Ishamael, who was instrumental in creating the future Seanchan Empire. A giant infodump might have been beneficial as a precaution against him potentially being detained in Seanchan-held lands before finding Rand. Ishamael may not have had a foolproof timetable on the return of the Seanchan v. the search for Rand, and it would serve his interests to have Fain pre-prepared with the right code words to give him undisturbed passage past any Seanchan, as well as juicy intel to trade if necessary.//
@78 How about the fact that Fain can understand Machin shin…. Could Mordeth be connected to Machin shin? We know when characters run into Machin shin, they hear voices… they describe the dominant voice being one of chaotic bloodlust… but If we explore the info from the \\Ogier that the elder brings forth in the very next chapter or two… Verin delves him and says he’s empty, there is nothing there. That seems to indicate that his mind or soul was taken… so could the voices in Machin shin be the souls of those it has taken and their knowledge? Fain can talk to Machin shin… off screen at least. He set it to cover his path at the waygate in Barthanes’ manor… \\ I’m not sure on the exact time line to bolster my theory… at some point it is said that Machin shin may have always been apart of the ways which were created while there were Male Aes Sedai still wandering after the breaking. It may be a stretch, but it could be the accumulated knowledge of Machin shin. Or it could be author error.
@78,79:
// Like Gollum who he is based on, the ‘distillation’ of Padan Fain may have left residues of Ishamael’s plans, and maybe even some of his memories within Fain. Ishamael himself was the one who was an advisor to Artur Hawkwing, and he would have been intimately familiar with Lutair Paendrag’s banner. So it could be that some part of that was left deep in the recesses of Fain’s mind, and it is definitely something that Mordeth would have latched on to, since its so similar to his own experiences with Adrihol. //
@73, @76
I’m near certain it was //the gholam that killed Barthanes. The means is not Slayer’s style. Slayer uses knives, bow and arrow, and, when killing Aes Sedai, nails through the tongue. Tearing people to pieces in a locked room has the gholam written all over it. c.f. Fel, Herid and Quintara, Tylin.//
On Barthanes’ death:
//I am genuinely unsure whether to call this for a Myddraal or the gholam. The head on a spike seems a little bit organized for the gholam, though the rest of the crime scene fits. We don’t know at what point the gholam was released, or by whom. A Myrddraal would have the presence of mind to add the scary display of the head, and we don’t know that there is no sexual trauma–it’s a secondhand description of a dismembered body.
I’m probably leaning towards “early books syndrome with underdeveloped aspects of two different monsters, really can’t tell”//
I will admit that I am ignorant on trans issues, and I apologize if anything I say is offensive. I engage in discussion to learn, not to impose my beliefs on others or to harm them.
Is it not possible that in a world built on principles of reincarnation and magic, people would simply not be ‘assigned’ to the wrong body? I’ve known and heard many trans people describe a feeling of being trapped in the wrong body while knowing they were a different gender. I understand that it may be more nuanced than that–that brings us back to the issue of whether gender is a binary, which is debatable in our own world but (perhaps controversially) a certainty from what we know of Randland–but if it is the case, I’m willing to accept the idea that the Wheel and the Pattern spin people out into bodies that match their gender identity.
//For this reason, I do consider Aran’gar to be trans representation–but in the wrong direction. Balthamel is a man who identifies as a man, but becomes trapped in the body of a woman. His experience mirrors that of many trans people, I would imagine. He is certainly a male at his core, because he believes he is a man and he channels saidin, which is our universal signpost for gender binary in this world. My issue with Aran’gar is not that he is a poor representation of a trans woman (because he is not a trans woman; he had no agency in his choice, and his gender identity does not align with the body the Dark One gives him), but that *he eventually grows to accept *his body and *his new identity. If you read Balthamel’s rebirth as Aran’gar as akin to a trans person’s recognition that they are in the wrong body, then the fact that he channels saidin and follows the gender binary is actually a good thing–but the fact that *he later embraces the body is a bit of a slap in the face, especially since *he still channels saidin.
*Note: I referred to Balthamel/Aran’gar as a “he”, because he does view himself that way for most of the series, but it becomes ambiguous later and I’m not sure if I should use female pronouns for late-game Aran’gar. I think that even reinforces the fact that Jordan simply didn’t stick the landing with this one.
I have a similar issue with Mat’s rape by Tylin–not that it happened or even that Elayne initially laughed at it, but that he grows to have feelings for Tylin–but that’s a major can of worms that we don’t need to get into right now. I think this series is mostly free of latent bigotry and a lot of the flaws are simply poor handles on serious issues, namely the two I mentioned above. There is room for a progressive storyline here, but I think Jordan’s environment and perhaps limited understanding held him back from driving them home.//
Again, I’m sorry if my limited grasp of the issues caused me to be offensive or otherwise harmed my contribution to the discussion. I’m always open to learning more–please tell me how I can be better!
@84 // It’s not that Balthamel/Aran’gar isn’t trans, it’s that they’re a pretty unpleasant person and, IRRC, fall into some pretty nasty tropes about trans people (albeit by being an awful person who’s trans but still). Since the TV show is going to be different from the books, why not make positive trans representation one of the differences? //
Interesting take from @84. I think we can, amazingly, actually step out of spoiler for a bit to discuss. I think that the question of whether the Pattern could put a misgendered soul into a body depends heavily on: is the Pattern benevolent?
It’s philosophically possible to have a hardline construct of overall providence for the universe while still maintaining that the results for individuals are harmful specifically to them while benefiting the whole (a Stoic position). I’m inclined to think that construct is a better match for what we see of the Pattern than a benevolent providence. So, my hardline in-universe answer would be: yes, in theory the Pattern could put a person in a wrong body, if there was a compelling reason in terms of the greater good. The individual’s suffering would be intense for them, but the Pattern would be indifferent.
//Verin says the Pattern is neither good nor evil. It takes two colors to make a pattern.//
@87
//I think I vaguely remember Verin saying something like that at some point, but for sure Moiraine said that the pattern was neither good nor evil in TDR, chapter 33. So, at the very least we can say with certainty that Moiraine firmly believes that that is true.//
@85 Good point–//Aran’gar, like most of the Forsaken, is sickening, especially with their constant objectification of the other Forsaken and pretty much everyone else they meet. Using sex as a weapon is something that is mostly avoided in this series, even with its hardline gender dynamics, and the fact that that role was given to a “trans” person (albeit one who is trans against his will, and one who was certainly a massive pervert even before his rebirth) really harms any commentary it could make on trans people. The Forsaken are slimy and evil and distasteful, and that makes it hard for there to be any positive representation of trans people in their midst, especially the one we got. I definitely wouldn’t be opposed to a more positive storyline being incorporated in adaptation–I like the idea of the Verin one mentioned earlier.
I still see Aran’gar as a trans man instead of a trans woman, though, because his identity is certainly male for most of the series. He just transitioned in the wrong order as punishment for his death. Either way, he’s still a negative example of trans representation, because he’s a terrible guy who just happened to be forced into transition.//
@86, 87, and 88, on the will of the Pattern: I think it’s definitely clear that the Pattern is about balance and order, and that that includes good as well as bad. //That’s a key theme of the Last Battle, after all.// From Moiraine’s cryptic tendency to fall back on “the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills” to more academic discussions of the Pattern–which I won’t reference because I 1) can’t quite remember them and 2) am unsure how spoiler-y they may be–that seems to be the consensus, even this early in the series.
So how does that ambivalence affect our discussion of misgendered souls in Randland? Well, it’s hard to say. I’m leaning towards agreement with @86–I don’t think the Pattern would hesitate to cause one person great pain for a greater purpose. But what purpose could that possibly be? And how much does a person’s gender, or perceived gender, affect what they are capable of effecting for the Pattern? In the grand scheme of things it seems equally inconsequential to misgender one person or one percent of people. Perhaps in a future Age, the Pattern will misgender vast swathes of people in order to blur gender roles?
I have another argument for the opposite, though I’m not particularly attached to either side: //reincarnation as it is presented in Wheel of Time seems to be fairly consistent. Birgitte has always been born female, and never a channeler. The Dragon, per RJ, will always be born male (though whether this must be biological, or just through his connection to saidin, I do not know–I doubt Mr. Jordan considered it). Presumably, everyone else who is bound by the Horn, like Birgitte, will follow the same pattern.
The problem with this is we really have no clue how reincarnation is handled among the wider population. Heroes of the Horn do not maintain their memories while they are alive, but they often have similar roles in each lifetime–Birgitte is always an archer, and she always meets and falls in love with Gaidal Cain. Rand’s link to his past life was granted through his taint-madness, and Ishamael’s supposed link to all of his past lives seems to be some kind of punishment from the Dark One, but they and the Heroes of the Horn are the only ones to have such connections, and the Heroes only remember during their time in Tel’aran’rhiod. Is the wider population bound to serve similar roles in each of their rebirths, or are they completely refreshed from their past lives, not held so tightly by the Wheel?
Channelers are always born to families with the genetic capability to channel, and presumably have the same strength between every life. This seems to be the closest link we have in the series between biology and rebirth. If the Pattern pays such close attention to each of its threads, how might it fail to correctly gender a soul, except for great purpose?
Lastly I want to mention that the only known misgendering in the series is deliberately crafted by the Dark One. The Dark One breeds chaos, and the Pattern stands for order. Can we not, then, assume that to misgender a soul is evil, and the province of the Dark One? Would a symbol of order deliberately misalign a person’s identity with their biology?//
I may have rambled on a bit and failed to articulate my points correctly. I think there’s some good discussion here, but I fear the ultimate answer will be “Robert Jordan did not consider trans issues when crafting his world.” Whether that is because no one is misgendered by the Pattern or because it just wasn’t that big of a deal in his time is uncertain. I will say that if the show wants to feature issues like this–as long as it remains consistent with Jordan’s world, themes, narrative, and characters–bring it on.
Wheel of Time was a series riveted in duality, not plurality.
Robert Jordan was an idiosyncratic man, not prone to compromise his expression of his views through his richly drawn characters, in how that duality manifested.
While I admire the respect & restraint, not to mention the genuine thoughtfulness of this discussion, I cannot help but be bemused at how wholly asymptotic it remains in relation to Wheel of Time itself. The duality of gender is intrinsic to every facet of every detail in the story. There are no half-measures, nor is there any room to change this for the sake of paying lip-service to modern sensibility.
I’m genuinely curious why those who are ostensibly fans of the work, are so intent on transmuting its core tenet into something entirely antithetical to what was written. Especially given how much brilliant contemporary, recent award winning work exists, which both elevates the ethos & widens the scope of SFF enormously.
Or, is this just a competition to prove how ‘Enlightened’ we are?
@72 @75 \\I don’t know how united the world was during AoL, there were at least 9 governors (9 rods of dominion) and a Tamyrlin, I imagine they wouldn’t all always see eye to eye so having an embassy near each of these would make sense to me.
As for scientific research, Ogier do not strike me as particularly scientific, if they wanted to study anything I think they would want to study the native plants of a new world i.e. lots of small steddings spread throughout the world in places where they can see nature.
Re travelling, the prevalence of sho-wings and jocars suggests that Travelling to travel was not that common so distances do still matter. \\
Agree with everyone that says it was the \gholam\
Sylas said ///“There’s almost always Trollocs.”///
If only. *sigh* *pout*
I could see the Pattern misgendering a Dragon to help him avoid Aes Sedai detection and increase his odds of success. I’d read the heck outta that.
@91: I think it probably depends on whether you have a “death of the author” or authorial intent approach to reading and adapting (and this thread started with the question of adapting for TV) a work of literature.
If you yourself have more of an authorial intent perspective, then you’ve expressed that with restraint and eloquence. I tend to lean towards a death of the author theory, particularly when considering an adaptation to a new medium (where I don’t tend to enjoy seeing the exact same story as the book without original spins to justify the alternate version and, ironically, keep the book intact as written in my mind without the film supplanting it).
I’m definitely not in a competition to prove points. If I have an ulterior motive starting this (admittedly fascinating) thread, it’s mostly “not wanting to be flayed alive on the Internet for loving WoT when the TV version comes out”. With a little admixture of “my job is really boring this week, so let’s have a thought experiment”. With the thought experiment at least somewhat inspired by the interesting situation of having a nonbinary person (Sylas switched pronouns after this blog series started) reading WoT for the first time.
Kudos again to this whole group for making it to comment #95 without a single modded comment on an emotionally fraught theme in the OP!
Presumably Fain has heard the same legends about High King Artur as everyone else. Combined with the information he got from villagers on Toman Head, that can explain everything he says to Turak – except for the banner. How a peddler from Lugard would recognize that banner is hard to explain. The whited-out comments above may be on to something regarding the banner, or they could be entirely off the mark.
For me it always reminds me of Torak, god of the Angaraks.
Those are some very good questions. Remember those questions. :-)
@anthony Pero (#35):
It’s easy to come up with reasons. As others have mentioned, an embassy can be complemented with consulates, and there wasn’t always an Aes Sedai available to open a gateway for everyone who wanted to travel. If it is a refuge, then it makes sense to not put all the eggs in one basket.
These speculations about the nature of stedding are interesting, but let’s not forget that they are only speculations with very little support in the books. Elyas at least believes that stedding aren’t created by Ogier, but rather the Ogier are a product of the stedding. My own guess, before I had read anyone else’s, was that the Book of Translation might move the Ogier through time, so that they could skip an age or two.
@95 Given how WOT ends, the potential for development is definitely open and wide ranging. However, before we get there, since there is going to be an adaptation, I would much prefer to see that done with what is on the page instead of adopting extraneous real-world advances in our understanding & acceptance of wider gender norms.
I’d definitely be interested in watching or reading about a Randland not riveted in the duality of gender, in which the understanding of the True Source moves beyond ‘male & female halves’. However that interest is in something new, not corrupting what already exists for fear of offending potential viewers.
Each Age is a snapshot in the turning of the Wheel. I hope the show stays true to what has been published, notwithstanding any changes or omissions that are required to cater to the change of medium. Hopefully the show will be successful enough for those who follow after to then use the established heritage facade, to build on & develop these new ideas as the Wheel turns.
In that same vein, I’m interested in learning how Sylas will encounter what is there now, instead of watering that reaction down with what might be.
@97 That’s actually a really interesting idea.. How would a non-binary channeler work? Would they be able to access both sides of the Source? Could explore lots of interesting things there.
I’m all for gender flipping in series, flipping any channelers in WoT is very difficult though as a lot of what a character goes through is determined by their gender (threat of madness vs Aes Sedai). Someone like /Ituralde/ could be made into a woman fairly easily. Be nice to have a non-male great captain. Would have to make sure it is in a society where that is possible though, so maybe /Furyk (Seanchan death guard)/ would be a better choice.
Amongst the Aiel that could also work, but since such a big deal is made out of \Sevanna\ being against tradition that wouldn’t really work. Could have more of the \maidens\ participating in strategy meetings though on top of acting as \bodyguards\.
@98 I’m not for gender flipping in series where that gender is intrinsic instead of incidental.
Given the way you discount your own suggestions above, I think it is obvious such tokenism only detracts from the potential quality of any WOT adaptation. And there is more than enough on the page without wholly changing the nature of the narrative.
One of the examples you give as a potential for gender-flipping (Ituralde), I see more as a prime candidate for excising entirely, or at least reducing to a glorified cameo as a grace note to what has come before.
I don’t see WOT having a representative problem, or lacking richness in texture & diversity within the established boundaries of the narrative. Those boundaries define the story and I believe they should be respected.
As I said in an earlier comment. If the adaptation of the completed material is successful enough, I would definitely look forward to seeing any sequels commence an exploration, that breaks the boundaries imposed in the published work. //Actually, I believe the ending of the series of books foreshadows as much.//
And another hunny belongs to ME! Mwahahahahaha!
We don’t get here very often anymore.
Binary gender essentialism is basic to WOT, that much is inescapable.
@100 – * bows*
Mods, this post is not showing on the index page. Can you fix?
@103 – Fixed, thanks!
@101 I might be mis-understanding what you mean by essentialism in this context but while the books do have a hard binary and magic gender is strictly defined, the day-to-day experience of gender is anything but essentialist. RJ uses gender roles to distinguish as major differences between the cultures. I think the phrasing I want is that while gender is tightly linked to biological sex (with its magical essentialism), gender is not essentialist at all with many cultures having widely divergent and contradictory ideas of gendered behaviors and qualities.
@105, Terminology is always a problem. I mean pretty much what you wrote.
Most Randland cultures seem to have distinct gender roles but the Seanchan don’t seem to make any differences except for a slight preference. towards female’s in authority (Emperor’s aren’t impossible but there hasn’t been one in several hundred years). But even in the Westlands women occupy many jobs and positions they didn’t in our world without comment.
I was so mad at Dena’s death. Her name is the closest to my name in the series. Then she was gone!
Plus the whole – female death to give male character pain. Stupid of the thugs. “Hey, we want information from you, but first, we will kill your friend.” Stupid thugs, stupid plot point.
@98: I’m typically for a gender flip when there is an imbalance of characters with strong plotlines only being of one gender. Since the WoT has an abundance of male and female characters with strong plots, nothing seems to be gained by deliberately flipping any.
I’m going to be interested in seeing how the show plays it.
I Think People Are Being Too Hard On Thom About His Thinking Dena Shouldnt Be A Gleeman. I Dont See It As Him Thinking She Is Too Weak To Do It, I Think He Simply Loves Her & Doesnt Want Her To Have To Suffer The Bad Experiences He Has Had Being One Himself; Its A Natural Part Of Loving Someone That We Want To Protect Them From The Bad We Have Endured!!! I Also Think As A Professional Performer That He Sees Her Potential & Wants To See Her Have A Chance To Be Successful, Like He Told Rand & Mat On Bayle Domons Ship- “I don’t know how to play at teaching, boy. I either teach a thing, or I don’t.”; He Wants Her To Be Able To Carry On Telling All Of The Stories He Has Collected & To Be Able To Use All The Knowledge He Has Gathered.
@108:
That… is an excessively long title?
@109 It’s the abbreviated title. The full version starts with “Being a Treatise on How…”
@109:
Its Just The Way I Write Online
, Better Than ALL CAPS Through Isnt It
!!!!
@98 How about a Gender Fluid character who channel both Saidin and Saidar, but not both at the same time